I've played EQ2 intermittently since launch, and despite a few gripes I think it's a very solid game. The only serious problem I've had is something SoE can do very little about -- an increasing amount of obnoxious behavior from the player base. I'm not talking about your run-of-the-mill offenses, i.e. spamming in chat channels or profanity. I'm talking about actions that some might not even consider obnoxious at first glance.
I'll give just two of the many examples I've encountered in my recent return to EQ2:
1. A group was forming for Fallen Gate and I volunteered to mentor as a tank. It turned out another SK had joined, and since he was a newer player I encouraged him to tank. After all, it's hard to land groups at the lower levels and yet people expect tanks to magically perform well when they land high-level groups or raids.
I had already exchanged several tells with the SK and it was clear to me that he was a reasonable person. But he wasn't familiar with Fallen Gate, and that sin would haunt him very soon. The crawl was awkward from the outset, as the SK was too tentative for the group's liking. People were typing "PULL ALREADY!" and "WRONG WAY!!", and soon they were emoting sighs of discontent. When we finally managed to kill a named mob, it was chaotic at best.
Despite passing him a few tips along the way, I couldn't keep up. The group grew restless and told me to start leading instead. The SK then took a seat and camped out. Inevitably, everyone in the group chimed in with all sorts of colorful insults. Not one person in the group (other than me) bothered to consider that maybe he was just overwhelmed with the expectation of leadership in his first FG crawl. He very well could be a great player, but we'll never know -- everyone was too busy jumping down his throat for not being an expert on Day One.
2. I joined a Clefts group and was promptly told to join voice chat. Considering there was nothing difficult about the task at hand, I wasn't sure why it was necessary but I hopped on. Whenever a groupmate came and went, they were instructed to get on VC pronto. And so it went, for the next half hour I had to listen to two kids brag about pot usage, how many texts they get from girls, and all the reasons their mothers were so frustrating. Apparently I was the only one in the group that didn't feel like spending his Sunday afternoon listening to this garbage, so I bid farewell. I'm sure there were a variety of insults hurled my way for doing so.
I know what some of you will say: wake up, dude, there are jerks everywhere! Ignore it and move on!
But that's a cop-out. If we don't start calling people out for their obnoxious behavior, the assumption will be that we find it acceptable. In the early days of the original EQ you'd come across the occasional miscreant, but the community was overwhelmingly helpful and they generally rejected bad behavior. These days in EQ2, cruelty and immaturity seems to be the norm rather than the exception. If you dare challenge that behavior, forget it, groupthink will run rampant and you'll be pegged as uptight and cranky.
It's just sad, because EQ2 is a quality, polished game that stands the risk of rotting from the inside. Personally, I believe it's the result of MMO creators being too afraid to implement interdependence. After all, if you can solo to 70 and you're a jerk in real life, what incentive is there to put your best foot forward?
skirrge wrote:
1. A group was forming for Fallen Gate and I volunteered to mentor as a tank. It turned out another SK had joined, and since he was a newer player I encouraged him to tank. After all, it's hard to land groups at the lower levels and yet people expect tanks to magically perform well when they land high-level groups or raids.I had already exchanged several tells with the SK and it was clear to me that he was a reasonable person. But he wasn't familiar with Fallen Gate, and that sin would haunt him very soon. The crawl was awkward from the outset, as the SK was too tentative for the group's liking. People were typing "PULL ALREADY!" and "WRONG WAY!!", and soon they were emoting sighs of discontent. When we finally managed to kill a named mob, it was chaotic at best.Despite passing him a few tips along the way, I couldn't keep up. The group grew restless and told me to start leading instead. The SK then took a seat and camped out. Inevitably, everyone in the group chimed in with all sorts of colorful insults. Not one person in the group (other than me) bothered to consider that maybe he was just overwhelmed with the expectation of leadership in his first FG crawl. He very well could be a great player, but we'll never know -- everyone was too busy jumping down his throat for not being an expert on Day One.
I would put the blame for this squarly on you. Unless the content is new, anyone expected to lead a group needs to know the content they are leading others through.
This is a basic of being a tank, if you are not familiar with the content, you should only tank if there is no other option. You should have tanked the zone from the start, leading the group through. The SK then would have been in a better position to tank the zone next time he was there.
This happened to me not long ago, I told the people to s.t.f.u. because I don't want to listen to their whiny voices. From that point on the only thing said in VC was to do with the content we were running.
When we finished they complained to me about having told them to shut it, and I just said that if you want everyone in the group to be in VC so you can communicate for easier for gameplay purposes, limit your talking in VC to those gameplay purposes.
"I would put the blame for this squarly on you. "
But of course you would. And you're obviously under the impression that a secondary tank is going to magically absorb the nuance of tanking while the chaos is unfolding? You're not being realistic.
A new player isn't going to learn the aggro ranges of mobs just by standing by, sorry to say. A new player isn't going to build instincts just by standing by, like spinning the mob so its back faces the scouts. And a new player sure as heck isn't going to learn how to keep calm and use Intervention abilities on their healers because they stood on the sidelines.
There is no substitute for actual tanking experience -- and when you pull crap like placing the blame on me, all you're really doing is sidestepping where the true blame lies: the impatience of arrogant players.
"I would put the blame for this squarly on you. "But of course you would. And you're obviously under the impression that a secondary tank is going to magically absorb the nuance of tanking while the chaos is unfolding? You're not being realistic.A new player isn't going to learn the aggro ranges of mobs just by standing by, sorry to say. A new player isn't going to build instincts just by standing by, like spinning the mob so its back faces the scouts. And a new player sure as heck isn't going to learn how to keep calm and use Intervention abilities on their healers because they stood on the sidelines.There is no substitute for actual tanking experience -- and when you pull crap like placing the blame on me, all you're really doing is sidestepping where the true blame lies: the impatience of arrogant players.
Actually, I expect a second tank to DPS, nothing more, nothing less.
A new player isn't going to learn how to tank without tanking, correct, but since tanking has a steep learning curve to it, a player should only ever learn to tank on content that they are already familiar with. I'm not saying he should never have been tanking, I'm just saying he should never have been tanking on his first trip through the content.
Big difference.
You volunteered to mentor as a tank.
There was a new player tank already in the group.
They accepted your offer to mentor down and tank FG
Thier expectations then would be a "godmode" version of a FG run, with you tanking.
What they received was a training run for a tank new to the game.
Do you see the problem?
Second groups issue, don't be a passive aggressive doormat. A simply guys, I don't need to hear about your pot/mom/girl/dog/school in many cases works.
Thirdly, yes you actually do learn the basics of tanking for a group through grouping with great tanks, watching what they do, and asking them questions. Voice chat is great for this.
Group with reasonable players. That is what guilds are for. Sadly, you cannot expect everyone in a pickup group to be the best possible mature-acting reasonably-sounding patiently-waiting friendly-disposed individuals. Your next pickup group would be of much better quality.
yes, you should have tanked FG and let the other tank watch and learn. let him ask questions, and if you were really upset with how the others were treating him, you could have stuck up for him instead of letting it continue on.
Noaani wrote:
skirrge wrote:1. A group was forming for Fallen Gate and I volunteered to mentor as a tank. It turned out another SK had joined, and since he was a newer player I encouraged him to tank. After all, it's hard to land groups at the lower levels and yet people expect tanks to magically perform well when they land high-level groups or raids.I had already exchanged several tells with the SK and it was clear to me that he was a reasonable person. But he wasn't familiar with Fallen Gate, and that sin would haunt him very soon. The crawl was awkward from the outset, as the SK was too tentative for the group's liking. People were typing "PULL ALREADY!" and "WRONG WAY!!", and soon they were emoting sighs of discontent. When we finally managed to kill a named mob, it was chaotic at best.Despite passing him a few tips along the way, I couldn't keep up. The group grew restless and told me to start leading instead. The SK then took a seat and camped out. Inevitably, everyone in the group chimed in with all sorts of colorful insults. Not one person in the group (other than me) bothered to consider that maybe he was just overwhelmed with the expectation of leadership in his first FG crawl. He very well could be a great player, but we'll never know -- everyone was too busy jumping down his throat for not being an expert on Day One.I would put the blame for this squarly on you. Unless the content is new, anyone expected to lead a group needs to know the content they are leading others through.This is a basic of being a tank, if you are not familiar with the content, you should only tank if there is no other option. You should have tanked the zone from the start, leading the group through. The SK then would have been in a better position to tank the zone next time he was there. Wrong, you learn better when you do it yourself !! so letting the sk tank was really nice done.
Wrong, you learn better when you do it yourself !! so letting the sk tank was really nice done.
people should play to have fun, not just to kill as many named as possible on the shortest time ever.
people need to learn, but if you don't let them learn early on, they'll suck at lvl 80 and nobody will want to play with them.
Now some guy will always suck, but trying to make them play better is also being part of a community.
Illine@Storms wrote:
people should play to have fun, not just to kill as many named as possible on the shortest time ever.people need to learn, but if you don't let them learn early on, they'll suck at lvl 80 and nobody will want to play with them.Now some guy will always suck, but trying to make them play better is also being part of a community.
People do need to learn, and in that you are right.
if the SK in the OP had have run the zone before as DPS, I would not have hesitated to let him tank (the fact that a mentored tank was there as backup means it is a great situation to learn to tank without much of an impact on the group).
The fact that the SK didn't even know which way to turn in the zone says to me he needs to learn his way through the zone before he leads a group through the zone.
Actually learning to tank is very easy even in completly unfamiliar zones. No one taught me how to tank I just did it.
If you read the OP, you'll notice the issue wasn't with the tank, it was the rest of the groups response to the tank.
They didn't want to take the time to talk the player through the zone, but that player should never have been in that position in the first place.
At the end of the day you can apply that same situation to any MMO these days.Human's are cruel and wicked at times especially so when they are young.There is no solution you cant stop them from doing it same as they cant stop you from being nice.
I guess its why the term "Deal with it" came into use.
People suck. I attribute a lot of that to society today. People are rude in real life. Throw in the anonymity of the internet, and a person who normally wouldn't say "boo" to somebody else suddenly feels empowered to talk more smack than they would in a real life encounter. People writing checks with their mouth that their a** can't cash. Happens here all the time, in fact.
If the annoying 14 year olds in your group insist on being, well, annoying, then leave. You can't change them. Chances are their parents can't. Don't let them ruin your free time, just bail on them. Maybe send a tell to anyone else in the group that expresses annoyance, see if they'd like to start a different group.
The rookie SK situation, that depends on how much of your time you want to spend tutoring someone. If you're willing to take them under your wing for an hour, you should be able to impart most of the basics while mentored, being able to pull their fat out of the fire in a pinch; I've done that with friends and with strangers. And I've been grouped with people that had no idea what they were doing. One Fury, okay, actually two (what's it with Furies not knowing how to play their own class at T8?!?!?!) drove me nuts. There are always options. It just depends on how much you want to invest in those options.
You offered to tank (mentored) for this group. What they expected was a tank that has DONE this content and knows their way around, meaning a quick and relatively painless jaunt through FG.
Yes, the newbie tank does need to learn how to tank but he shouldn't be encouraged to do it on his FIRST time in a zone, especially if the group agreed that they wanted a mentored tank leading the way. A newbie tank does need to watch a seasoned tank, ask questions, LEARN THE ZONE (at least somewhat) before taking charge. That is what the OP was there for in my opinion: to lead the way, to tank and show the newb how it's done and answer his questions if he had any.
If the newbie tank ASKED to tank or you were strongly suggesting it (as it seems you were), then it should have been explained to the other members of the group and the group should have been asked if they were okay with it. For example, "Hey guys, newguybob has never tanked before on his own but he is completely new to this zone, do you mind if he tanks a few mobs too so I can help him out?". At that point, you could have taken turns tanking mobs if the rest of the group was cool with it. Or the newb could have tanked until all hell broke loose and then you could have taken over for the rest of the zone.
This was a bad situation from the beginning because what the group expected and what happened were two completely different things and nothing was discussed prior to starting the zone.
I blame everyone involved. Yes, the rest of the group was mean to the newb and that's not cool but the OP could have done some things differently as well.
The best thing you can do is just /ignore these players and suddenly they no longer exist in your MMO.
