http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=453852

So, the new master plan is to remove Magical debuff ability from "rogues" and shunt it to summoners, as its Brigands who do this, what are you giving us back?

Brigand = worst self buffs of the 4 dps scouts, no haste or dps, no clicky short term buffs, like the other 3 get, outside of the shared by all scout ones to haste/dps. no insight, no focus aim.

Brigand = Lowest dps potential of the 4 DPS scouts. even swash out perform us single target, and own us aoe dps.

Brigand = worst AA trees of the 4 DPS scouts. just lulz at brigand AA's tank specs, debuff enhancers that do nothing, the list is pretty big for the amount of suck we get via AA's.

Brigand = Worst Deaggro of the 4 dps scouts. no transfers, no fixed rate % negative hate gain, we get a proc that lands for a 3rd of my auto attack ! awesome stuff.

Brigand = worst aggro issues of the 4 dps scouts (combo of dps/debuffs/poor deaggro).

Brigand = has the worst mythical of the dps scouts(swash is possibly equally as bad).

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Brigand had 100% aoe immunity for all of the above, you removed it.*(see below)* added nothing back.

Brigand had debuffs that always landed, for the above penaltys, you removed it, added nothing back.

Brigand had proc deaggro drops 1 hate position, for the above penaltys, you removed it, added nothing back.

Brigands get told time and time again, they cant have more dps, cant have aoe damage, cant have better AA's, cant have a better mythical, cant have better deaggro, have to suck it all up basically for our DEBUFFS.

so lets see, you are now planning on removing half of our debuffs ? just lulz do you even realise what you are doing to rogues? you want to fix summoners, and instead of making them desirable you are going to move rogues into the ..it dont really matter if we have them on a raid or not category?

Can you also explain to me why you feel the need to add aoes to mobs that, 1 Totally ignore our amazing reflexs? and 2 Totally ignore T/swipe?

*()*

Amazing reflex's, my desire for this is to have you switch it back to what it was, i will explain why before everyone starts with the its to OP songs, read what i have to say, then make your mind up.

Prior to EoF, Damage shields on mobs were either something like barbcoat, or the SK version, small damage dealt on every blow. with this kind of content being totally AOE immune was very very powerful, and probably warranted it being changed some what.

With the advent of Avatars, we found a new mechanic, Damage shields, reactive % chance detrimental effects, real nasty ruin your day kinda stuff, i pretty much hated trying to debuff avatars back in EoF, stun,stifles,roots,fears,mez. DD, DD+dots, all of which negate in any shape or form the benefit of being aoe immune, so what if an aoe wont land on you when you have a 50% hit rate and spend 50% of a fight doing nothing.

Then we get into Rok/Tso, damage shields are now a staple part of any encounter worth a damn, not only that, but they have now evolved, not only do they stack you up with control effects that remove any control you have over your avatar, they debuff you, removing your crit's, ca damage, chance to hit, they drain your power, they proc damage and drop your not so Amazing reflexs,

In short looking at the way raid content has evolved, doesnt it seem kind of silly now thinking amazing reflexs would make brigands over powered? so what if you dont take aoe damage, if you cant dps or debuff b/cos of damage shields, or aoes that totally ignore aoe block abilitys?

I could kind of live with Brigands being at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to the 4 dps scouts and the 4 dps mages, if you stopped taking away the things that define our class, but hey, no one has opposed you removing everything that set us apart from the others so far, so am i wasting my time hoping that you wont put the final nail in the coffin lid for us, and will actually this time give something back for once?

Im all for making summoners more raid desirable, but doing so at our expense is a slap in the face, you have a huge issue atm with raids using so many bards and chanters, why dont you add some of the utility they have to summoners? you know and cut down on the need for 8 or 9 bards/chanters.

you could make pets be like a miny bard or mini chanter, you could remove things like arm.coercive.battlecry.upbeat etc to summoners, make summoners desirable where you have a real issue with 4 class's being so OP they take up a 3rd of a raid force, most guilds i know use 1 swash and 1 brigand, and 9 utility class's, i mean hello? isnt this glaringly obvious?

as it stands now, most raids are set up like this

group 1

 -chanter, bard, tank, healer, healer, scout  <--- MT group ( might have 3rd healer instead of scout)

group 2

 - chanter, bard, sorcerer, healer, healer, scout ( or another mage type)

group 3

-chanter, bard, bard, scout, healer, healer ( mainly scouts, can afford to lose 1 healer for another scout or a mage)

group 4

tank, healer, chanter, bard, scout, healer...

please note, the coloerd classes are pretty much NEEDED in a raid

so i see 4 chanters and at LEAST 4 bards, 3-4 scouts and 7-8 healers. 3/4 scouts, and 2/3 mages and 2 tanks ( dont forget some fights take more than 2 tanks now as well...)

so how in the hell is this fixing the problem of requiring a summoner? there isnt room for them with 94238 bards and chanters in raid. dont even think of touching us in hopes of getting more summoners in a raid. maybe make them comparable dps to a sorc, or train them not to suck. then maybe people will bring them in raids

now that i have cooled down some, if you gave necros / conj some sort of higher form of power regen like a chanter has... then maybe you could see them in a group or raid more often. give them more dps ( even tho i have seen some parse high as they are now). but on another note, if you give them power regen, then you are taking what a "chanter does" and giving it to somebody else. summoners are fine the way they are, its just that 99% of them dont know how to play their toons well and THAT is the reason most of them dont see groups or raids. they could use a small boost in dps imo, anything else would make them over powered

If summoners are in need of a desirability boost give them summit new, DO NOT be taking LONG established abilities from other classes, just think a little and stop being lazy. Seriously if brigands lose YET ANOTHER ability and get sweet FA in return i'm about through. CHANGE after Change after CHange is ruining this class, pack it the f o ok in

Change a.k.a NERF

No Nerfs in '10

i have the feeling i can't control my vocalibury right now...

don't nerf us again in '10.

its not even about nerfing, its about taking away what a brigand is, we debuff the mobs defences... hang on let me find my descriptin of what a brigand is according to sony...

 here it is, right off of their site... main page, undeer explore the game > classes > brigand

Brigands are crafty rogues who employ intimidation and force to subdue their enemies.  The Brigand maintains an element of unpredictability to arouse discomfort, fear, and confusion in an opponent.  Strikes from a Brigand will often leave a foe crippled and vulnerable to further attacks.

sorry to hear this Brigs

this is sad news. why on earth would the devs even consider taking away the only thing rogues do well ... debuff.

my blood pressure is raising, i better just log off from this site before i smash my LCD

This is complete and utter BS.

Aerlick darn well better buff brigands big time in some other manner if he makes a crap move like this.

Of course he wont though, because he's simply clueless.

What the heck?  I'm playing a half-elf brigand because I enjoy debuffing.  But now I'm supposed to accept that part of my purpose is being gutted?  Umm...  Well that's brilliant.

We rogues will be wanting something new in exchange for what we're losing.  But the devs appearantly didn't want to give the summoners something new in the first place, so why is adding something to the rogues any more attractive?

Between various things for the past year, I've started to question just how much longer I wanted to play this game.  Should this change be implemented as described and we're not given something down right amazing in return, I'll likely jump ship to another MMO once it leaves the developement stages.  Which is frankly too bad since I've grown fond of this game.

you guys are all saying " well then we want something in return " lets stop saying that and just say this is a horrible idea, it strips every thing that we are supposed to do and be.

if we wana play this game, we can play this game... i think that healers should be able to dps, tanks should be able to heal. mages should be able to tank and scouts should be able to cast spells. why? because its fun to give other people your abilities and make urs obsolete

Taicheese wrote:

you guys are all saying " well then we want something in return " lets stop saying that and just say this is a horrible idea, it strips every thing that we are supposed to do and be.

 

if we wana play this game, we can play this game... i think that healers should be able to dps, tanks should be able to heal. mages should be able to tank and scouts should be able to cast spells. why? because its fun to give other people your abilities and make urs obsolete

I dont think asking for a reverting of AR to be what it was, was an acceptance, i dont want anything to change, i want him to give something back to our class, without taking anything else from it.

considering the complete lack of thought that went into the shard armor and even less consideration they put into compenstating players after they jacked the hybrid armor all to heck... the plans they have for rogues as you've have intelligently noted and counterpointed (kudos btw), my guess is SOE will eventually reduce EQ2 to the substandard drivel that SWG has degraded into.  Prep for another Combat Upgrade either prior to the next expansion or will be implimented with the next expansion.

i have a feeling this "General Scout Discussion" section is going to be where SOE buries class complaints so that later they can claim, "well we never heard anything from the player base about these issues you are just now mentioning...  oh they were posted in the "General Class Discussion" area?  who reads that?

General Class Discussion forum:  the "trash can" of the EQ2 forums where mods dump threads that they have no right to lock or delete yet don't want the average visitor to the forums to read and become educated by...

Wow just Wow. Brigs have long paid a steep price for Dispatch and now to take it away...

I cant believe how out of touch the devs are. Instead of addressing the issue with 8-9 bards + chanters and 8+ healers in raids they face slap brigs.

Some dev needs to be hung drawn and quartered, quick.

Just because some brainless moron cant make conjurers work properly, we have to suffer?  guess if theyre so stupid to destroy summoners, they simply cant grasp the fact that brigs had this since day zero, some 5 years ago.

Personal address to the stupid person - Just fix summoners.  Fix them without screwing another class just because youre too brainless to think abuot a proper fix.

Christ, no wonder why server populations are so low, when you destroy the game.  Look at what Head Moron did to SWG, nows its our turn

please guys, i know just how angry and frustrated you feel, ive been fighting for Brigands to not be shafted since eof, and ive had my fair share of forum warnings over it, and breaks.

but dont get the thread locked, we need to keep it going so they can see just how bad this idea is, and how much of a negative impact its going to have if it even makes it onto test server.