$1.50 seal breaking powder - bad idea...

Discussion in 'General Game Discussion' started by Badrock, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. Badrock Member

    Please note: I fully support the F2P model and pay options, when done right. This game has many features that were designed in a vacuum with only revenue in mind.

    Warning: This is long with details. Skip to "this should not be possible" near the bottom if you don't care about the details.

    Honestly, the entire aspect of sealed flutes is probably a bad idea, but the pay option, with the way the flutes are right now, is a horrible move. Here's why:

    First consider the overall costs associated with only dragons:
    1 time costs:
    - Full slots - $19.70 - The inventory portion of this is fine, the lair is pretty spendy, especially for those that purchased founder packs. (You do have something to show for the money spent)

    Revolving costs:
    - Production > 5 hours: Possibly max of $4.80 or roughly $144 a month (If used for flutes or napolite, this would fall under the "designed to disappoint category)
    - Production/Training Results Boost (increases the amount up the x3) - Possible max of $43.20 a day or $1296 a month (If used for flutes or napolite, this also would fall under "designed to disappoint" category)

    Now consider the costs already attached to features that are designed to disappoint (The concept is simple. If the feature disappoints more than it doesn't, then it is designed to disappoint.)

    Example #1: Field training. I know people who have paid for $9.00 with no results. I personally spent $4.50 before getting a result and a considerable amount more getting the results i wanted on 3 dragons. Additionally, you can't control which way the train goes so you may end up, like I did. Paying $0.50 a pop to remove the elite skills that weren't skill training mastery.

    Example #2: Dragon drive potion. People with full charisma builds likely won't fell to negative about this, but if we tried for a balanced build, it would be mandatory. Even worse, you burn a potion and still can't capture the dragon? Or you burn a potion and you get a 4 slot ancient with Taunt and Replacement taking up 2 of the slots.
    Finally, now, not only is everyone convinced that the rates were ratcheted down. Guilds with rank 3/4 flutes and 4 extraction are seeing worse results than when we had rank 1 flutes and no extraction buff. So you can't even notice buffs that are supposed to be a guild triumph. However, you can notice, and it was even in the patch notes that they are increasing the rate of sealed flutes. (/innocent sarcastic tone) Why on earth would they do that I wonder?? Because there is a pay option for the seal breaking powder.

    More importantly however, the dragon drive potion is voluntary at the moment you see a dragon you want to capture. Now, you don't have control over the slots and could get a 4 slot turd, but you do have control over which dragon you get. The new seal breaking powder, close to 3 times the price, and for what? The last purple I used was a majestic crown with 2 or 3 rank I elite skills. How are you going to feel if you paid $1.50 for that? What if you get an ancient, use a dragon drive potion and aren't able to capture it?

    Everything is designed to keep sucking money out of the players.
    - In my bank, 4 - 10 slot ancients that I used dragon drive potions on and beginner dragon soul (they each came from different days)
    - Not done yet.. each has 10 slots and only comes with minimal skills, I have to train them. at 3 x a day, it could take me weeks to train the skills I want onto one dragon. Unfortunately, I can't control which way the training goes
    - Each one of them came with 2 or more elite skills (All but 1 are rank I). That means if I want those dragons focused on fighting and I don't want to cross field train elite skills instead of combat skills, I have to pay $0.50 to remove them. I have paid $0.45 trying to train a dragon and had an elite skill transfer that I then paid $0.50 to remove, yet the original remained, so I paid another $0.50 to remove it.

    You don't have to do a deep analysis on these features to be impacted by them. Every time a player spends money and something negative happens, it impacts the relationship with the publisher/dev and the player. The players already have plenty to feel burned about, but now this $1.50 seal breaking powder comes into play front and center of one of the most enjoyable features. At this point, people don't need anymore disappointment in the game, let alone revolving around the flutes and taming dragons.

    This should not be possible:
    - I pay for 24 hours of flute production on 6 dragons. $4.80
    - I pay for x3 production for all. $43.20
    - The result is: 432 flutes

    Today 2 guild mates, with rank 3 flutes and rank 4 extraction extracted a combined 500 flutes resulting in a total of 2 unsealed blues. They only got 1 seal breaking powder total.

    From there you could pay $1.50 for a sealed purple and end up with a 10 slot majestic crown. Or a 10 slot ancient with 4 rank I elites and 1 usable skill. Or a 10 slot ancient with taunt, replacement and some elite skills. All of which will need training or removal of elite skills. (I just offered up my jade soul with those 2 soul skills :p). No matter how much you spend in that process, you have such a tiny chance of anything positive happening or coming out with something to show for the money spent.

    How do you fix it (off the top of my head):
    - One idea is stop trying to monetize everything for gods sake and quit trying to be tricky about it. People will feel it whether they analyze it or not.
    - For the things you will monetize, make them more reasonable. If it is a multiple times a day cost it shouldn't be more than $0.10. You will get more people using it, less negative feelings building up because of it.
    - Whenever and where ever possible, give value in return or a minimum some benefit for paying. If someone uses a $1.50 seal breaking powder, make the dragon easier so they don't have to use a dragon drive. Give them a better chance of an ancient. If you purchase a dragon drive prior to spawning a dragon, give them a slightly better chance at an ancient. Give them both rare chances of 12 slot dragons. This all assuming no one is going to bother using $1.50 on a blue flute. Let us pay $0.25 to convert 10 sealed blues into an unsealed purple. :)

    For field training, make it much cheaper and reliable. Sell 3 packs if you want a larger commitment, but still make it cheaper.

    World of Tanks sells premium tanks from $35 on up. You get a tank, but not only that, one that gets favorable match making and significantly increased credit production. So not just a tank, but ongoing functional benefits and the players love Wargaming for it and will purchased multiple.

    Bottom line, consider fixing and staying away from any pay features that have a chance of making the players feel like they have lost. If anything have things fall, on average, more towards break even and if you absolutely have to have some possible loss, have a possible win too.
    Arlem, Garuda, Giovanni3 and 2 others like this.
  2. Melite Well-Known Member

    There are a few things I don't mind paying for, seal-breaking powder is not one of those things. It seems like they really have no consistent ratio of SC : DI and that is frustrating, though I have a feeling if they ever standardize it, it will not be in our benefit.
    Arlem and Bugznmike like this.
  3. NazzyDragon Member

    Honestly, $1.50 for the powder feels like, and is, a complete and utter ripoff with the current rates of other flutes. It's frustrating, and just makes me want to drop the game. Feels more like a money sink than a game, now. :I
    Arlem and Adena like this.
  4. Mystogan Well-Known Member

    The problem here is that people who are unwilling to pay will just use this chance to call it pay2win.

    I really do hate these people, because they essentially make it such that people who do spend and subsidize their gaming gets given a system that is exploitative.

    I am not even asking for what Badrock is proposing; higher chances at getting ancients WOULD be nice, since they are mostly cosmetic when everyone is at level 60.
  5. Badrock Member

    Myst, given your point about these things being mostly cosmetic, which they are, and the large number of other pay2win aspects, I think this one might escape that label. Nazzy's reaction is the one I'm talking about. You don't have to go into the details to know you're getting taken advantage of. It would be different if they were listening/learning and trying to get better. This new move (plus the increased sealed rate) is going even further in the wrong direction.
    Arlem likes this.
  6. snowman Active Member

    i think the price is higher to promote doing dailies for shells. and using those to unlock. not SC.. sort of like selling a reroll item for $100usd in sc, but then also offering it using 15 maxout days of shells as a payment. make people work for an item in game to not pay a ridiculous price.. this puts players int your game world and make it less empty since players will go into game to get shells to buy what they do not want to spend SC on.
  7. Seryss Active Member

    The flutes are a convenience item. If they had not implemented them, your only option for getting an ancient dragon would be to camp spawns. So its a matter of camping spawns for a dragon you want which may also have bad skills 4 slots etc., or use a flute that you had to do practically nothing to obtain that is guaranteed to be 10 slot. adding a 1.50$ charge for an item that will save you hours maybe days of time doesn't sound unreasonable.
  8. badbrad Active Member

    well considering the new rate of seal powder is about 1 in 30 for me now since the patch. gotton 18 since patch along with 2 in less than 10 extracts(can post ss). Would also like to let you know enhance extraction does nothing for extraction its a buff on aoe skills now instead. Flute gathering using 5 hours intervals in really easy to do. Not only that but you can get enough dragon drive potions from shell gathering each week to capture all the ancients i got from flutes.

    Field training I think should be fixed to atleast let you do 3x training per drag if not more.
  9. Poisinivy Well-Known Member

    Basically what you have here is what I had a feeling we would have the day I found out this was a Runewake game, Runewake nickel and dimed everyone to death in runes of magic and he did it again here....Honestly I wish I hadnt fallen for it. I would love for SOE to return the 40k SC that I feel I have wasted in this game and go spend it in another SOE game where I would feel I am at least getting my money's worth. but like I said it was no ones fault but my own I chose to waste it in this game trying to develop one character and I should have trusted my instincts.
    Keith Smith likes this.
  10. Adena Well-Known Member

    I'm glad I stopped fluting dragons when I did.
  11. badbrad Active Member

    I don't like how the majority of the cash numbers are coming from spending sc to do 24 hour gathering instead of the 5 hour one, no difference between the 2 other than not having to log in once every 5 hours, and spending large amount to x3 the production of flutes to 450 a day. I've done about 600 flutes this week with very little play time and I've gotton 16 sealed blues 8 unsealed. 8 purples sealed 6 nonsealed. 20-30 greens. and 18 sealbreaking powder. Without spending a dime this week. The only investment i made was my dragon lair and stable and personally i would not want the instant one day 2-3 ancients to be any cheaper since the way it is now you can get 2 ancients a week.

    But anyways you can say all you want how you can spend tons of money to get ancient dragons instantly and then complain but in reality ancients are so easy to get in this game that i can hardly fly across laedis on an indigo flare or pale radiance or umbral without seeing 1 or more people riding the same thing.

    If you were going to argue on costs of 3x production atleast do on something that is actually an advantage such as the 1 or 2 people who have or nearly leveled their combat drags to 60 taming level. That is the only gamebreaking cash spending option available atm that is actually worth doing.
  12. Badrock Member


    You missed the point badbrad. It is likely you just wanted to chime in and argue, so I won't bother re-explaining it. I will share some insight with you. You might want to start by considering yourself one of the lucky ones (especially with 18 seal-breaking powder). This game isn't about just your perspective (which you've been luckier with) or my perspective (took 3 days to get 2 unsealed purple and 3 unsealed blue and 1 seal breaking powder). I actually gather results and data from other people. I wouldn't in a million years pay $1.50 for seal-breaking powder. However, I'm concerned how disappointing of an experience it would be for others that do. I'm not chiming in just to put my 2 cents in. I'm speaking up for the sake of the game and its future, which isn't looking peachy. People like you who fail to see the big picture don't help.
    Mystogan and Keith Smith like this.
  13. Hadriax New Member

    Good post Badrock, well thought out and concise. It doesn't matter tho. The simple truth is, "as long as people are spending the money, there is no reason to change it". I agree with you , whole heartedly. The game's monetary system is designed to punish not reward.

    S.O.E. and Runewaker have absolutly no incentive to change it however. Sure a few people see it for what it is and call them out on it-so what? If they wern't making money on the current system (or if it had not made money in the past[runes of magic]), they would not use it.
  14. Rave Well-Known Member

    Badrock, I agree, but you kinda took the long way around something much simpler.

    Most things in the Marketplace are available with SC or Insignias. And there is a pretty normalized ratio between them. The Powder's price blows the ratio big-time.

    Case in point: Gateway Transportation Runes, like Powder, have an Insignia cost of 250. Yet their SC cost is only 45. The Powders are being sold for more than 3 times this in SC.

    It was a blatant cash grab by SOE banking on player's desire to get those fancy Ancients. And I'd wager money it worked very, very well.
    Arlem likes this.
  15. Bugznmike Active Member


    yea field training is still the most annoying aspect and highest priority on the fix list in my opinion
  16. Badrock Member


    I agree with you about the pricing, but I completely disagree about the issues having a simply fix. They are going to need a paradigm shift. Given the game's current frustrations, and lack of end game content, I decided to cut my time back and just do flutes until I got the rest of my ancients, waiting it out for the upcoming patch. The last 30 I extracted sum up the kind of results I've been getting pretty well. 30 flutes = 2 sealed blue, 2 sealed purple. You would have a hard time convincing me that they didn't ratchet down the amount of unsealed flutes in favor of sealed in an attempt to get more cash.

    There are plenty of people that don't want to leave this game. They aren't giving a lot of reasons to stay though.
  17. Badrock Member


    Oddly enough, one of the better and passive monetization mechanics didn't make it over from Runes of Magic. Not a lot makes sense with this game though, so I'm not surprised.
  18. Wadgod Member

    I think *some* not all *some* of the stuff in the cash shop is way over priced, i mean really the costume sets are like nearly $15 i mean really wtf and if i were to get it "free" doing my 10 dailies it would take like 3 months. I love the "free" section of the shop for the insignias, but i think alot of its over priced considering u can only earn about 100 a day.

    Real money cash shop i think some of the prices on lots of the stuff depending on what it is to be dropped 25%-50%
    I think alot of the extra bag and bank slots need to also be massively reduced, not in a million years would i pay like 200sc or what ever for another whole 10 slots on my FIRST bag expansion maybe on like my 5th or 6th could be some outrageous price but for like the first extra bag expansion i wouldnt pay anything more then 75sc for the first and proly no more then 300sc for the last.

    lair and personal dragon slots i believe were fairly priced small but ever increasing prices, not massive and ever increasing prices.

    Lots of stuff fairly priced many others intended to gouge players out of lots of money for small services. I have no issue spending money on this game, I do have an issue with not getting a far price on small or useless items (ex costumes they do nothing but change ur look)...(even though i do admit i have one but was extremely difficult to fork over the outrageous amount of money for it and wont be doing it again unless the prices drops dramatically)
  19. Selluna Member

    The funny thing is, they would make alot more money if seal powders were 20SC, people think, oh it's only 20 cents. Pop! Pop! Rather.... oh it's $1.50 and I'll get majestic crown...
    Keith Smith, Garuda and Bugznmike like this.
  20. Seryss Active Member


    Actually the costumes do something, and you will want 10 of them; I'm sure a lot of people will figure out why soon enough, and it's going to be a QQ storm.
    Keith Smith likes this.

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