Remove toughness.

Discussion in 'PVP Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-threat111, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. ARCHIVED-threat111 Guest

    Toughness is completely rediculous and when it was introduced in beta I told you exactly what problems we would have. Here we are 10 months later and its a huge failure. The problem with the toughness is the innate base damage modifier. Its way out of balance with the ability to heal all forms of incoming damage. Pretty much any fight reguardless of player ability is nothing more then a heal fest.

    Balanced fights with even groups could easily last for hours and hours. In TSO the fights with skilled/geared players ultimately came down to variables that no longer exist, ie charms. Now add toughness and anyone concious enough to press 1, 2, 3, repeat can ultimately survive any amount of incoming damage. PVP has essentially turned into a game of tic-tac-toe. Its one stalemate after another. Or if you do win its due to the fact that a 6v6 turned into a 20 v 6 because the fight lasted so long.

    Obviously you are going to want to justify your job with your incredible useless knowlege of pvp mechanics, so I'll throw you a bone. Keep the "idea" of toughness and just remove the innate damage reductions. Remove it from the jewelry and the armor. If you want to increase the survivability of players modify the pvp crit mit on these items. Instead of 20 toughness. Just give the item 20 pvp crit mit. Looking forward its pretty easy to see that the direction the game is going and its going to be alot easier to simply adjust the pvp crit mit on the items.
  2. ARCHIVED-Heelo Guest

    i agree 100% toughness has to go. Pvp critmit by itself is enough of a damage reduction. I was ina group v group fight that lasted almost an hour and it was so painfull.
  3. ARCHIVED-Brynhild Guest

    Toughness isn't a problem in group fights. If your group is balanced right then it's more strategic, getting the proper debuffs off, etc. If you have a group of 4 SK's , it's not going to end against 2 healers in the other group but if you have dirge/brig/assassin/wiz/etc. you can strategically kill the other group. One vs one though, toughness makes it last for ages.
    I've been killed in less than 3 seconds even with full pvp gear and adorns on, although it has only happened a few times in the thousands of times I pvp. They were well coordinated and debuffed/attacked at the same time together and timed it right, that's all it takes.
    Personally I would rather have toughness give more crit mit, and no damage reduction. 150% crit mit even, just no reduction. That way you know if you get a hit, it hits for the intended amount, no crits of course but that's how it was in TSO and it worked well.
  4. ARCHIVED-Ralpmet Guest

    How about just adjusting toughness caps instead of removing it?

    You know, there were reasons we moved to this system, it would probably make sense to try to adjust it instead of just scrapping it and going back to something that was clearly inferior.

    We can also work on people's survivability by taking away the 50000000000000000 ward/heal procs that gear offers now and many other issues.

    What you're going to see by just removing toughness is people's health's jumping all over. That assassin that you're barely hurting now, he's gonna take half his health off your one nuke, then he's gonna hit you 5 times and be at full again with tons of wards running, and it's going to be the same situation as it is now.
  5. ARCHIVED-BlueEternal Guest

    Ralpmet wrote:
    Guess what, atleast there will be a slight chance of people actually dying! Yay!
  6. ARCHIVED-convict Guest

    Cesium@Nagafen wrote:
    agree
  7. ARCHIVED-threat111 Guest

    got this as a PM and decided to share it.


    "I think you are overlooking the idea of pvp armor. Pvp armor ahould have effects and bonuses that are exclusive and beneficial to a pvp encounter, not a pve encounter. By simply copy, pasting the raid set and modifing the stats you are really missing the intention of pvp armor and jewelry.
    Pvp armor and set bonuses should include effects that increase your survivabilty in pvp. "
    - Cesium
    Toughness will remain as is for now. The fact you attack rather then consider what was requested by so many "veterans" is fun to me.
    Olihin
  8. ARCHIVED-threat111 Guest

    Feel free to go thru the PM's and chats we have had in the past where i clearly said copy pasting raid gear is not the way to go. But, this is what you have done. You say you dont want to go down this path, but you continue down that road with no change in sight. The ROK jewelry was the first sign of "smart and intellegent" design. The fact that its gone away from that and simply made into a copy paste design is your direction.

    I attack the idea's becuase they dont work. I knew from the beginning they would not work and I continue to see them fail. The only reason I am choosing to get involved with this conversqtion again is the fact that server performance issues are being addressed so I will continue to pay my sub. Since I am going to be around some more I'd like tosee the other problems fixxed.

    Feel free to continue down the same old path. But, PVP sucks now and its only got worse under your control. I understand you want to apease the masses and make PVP fun for every one. In turn show your boss that you can make him money. But making every one invincible is a terrible idea. PVP is about killing other players. PVP is not about standing around pressing buttons for 30 mins hoping that more people from your team show up before more people from thier team show up.
  9. ARCHIVED-Heelo Guest

    trying to balance class survivability with a shared stat like toughness was not a good idea at all. Across the board damage reductions on gear help some classes but make other classes unkillable. I've said this before and I'll say it again addressing class balance issues with gear is fail imho and it seem like a road this game just keeps trying to go down time and time again.
  10. ARCHIVED-Ajjantis Guest

    Toughness has to go!
  11. ARCHIVED-Ragamuffin Guest

    Heelo@Nagafen wrote:
    ^^^^


    As a ranger i have an easier time killing most tanks than wizzy and warlocks, something is broken here.

    i've been out pvp just about every night for the entire month an it is almost getting old how long these fights last against people who have absolutely no clue what they are doing in this game.
  12. ARCHIVED-Wytie Guest

    The dev doesnt get it, because he doesnt pvp enough in T9(if at all)to see wtf he has done.
    Remove toughness or nerf it 400% across the board, should have just stacked pvp crit mit.
    Keep on Olihin you will mess the pvp in this game up like your previous one....
  13. ARCHIVED-threat111 Guest

    Survivability means differant things for differant classes. Like heelo all ready said global damage reduction is moronic. Its all ready been said that balancing is done on a group vs. group level so if thats true lets look at what acually increases a classes survivability in a group.

    In a group setting you would want your tank you have more ways to hold aggro. This was addressed in ROK thru procs on pvp items and worked quite nicely. This should be the direction we can go down. Scouts and Mages can benefit from items that prevent them from being focus'd down as well as items that could grant short periods of tuant immunity. Healers could recieve items that prevent interupts, control effects and/or aoe immunity. These are just a few ideas on what can be done to "increase survivability" and not completely destroy the basic fundementals of a pvp encounter.

    This would be giving classes tools to make them more survivable, not giving some one the ability to be super human.

    The qoute you pulled was in context of the TSO pvp gear being a direct copy paste of the raid gear. Im also pretty sure I also yold you that the ROK direction was the way to go. And if you are interested in using my qoutes out of context I'd be more then willing to share yours and bend them to reflect what I want to say.

    Kinda like the time you told me "The issue I am looking into is that if I add toughness to our current PVP sets, we will be way to overpowered"
  14. ARCHIVED-goose1123 Guest

    Cesium@Nagafen wrote:
    So what you're saying is, we should give classes a way to enhance their primary jobs instead of making everyone able to live through everything simply because of toughness?
  15. ARCHIVED-Wytie Guest

    Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:
    That takes waaaay to much thought and work!
  16. ARCHIVED-Olihin Guest

    It is always a good thing to reflect on what was said and what was done.
    If you actually look at all the new AA that were added to each class, they already covered a lot of the suggestions our players made in regards to class enhancements. I was right in that adding toughness to our current PvP armor would make them overpowered. That is why we have two set of armor now, so that your PvE armor does not become obsolete with the rest of your raid having PvP armor like it was in TSO.
    Toughness is not changing right now because we have other changes that need to be considered first. So yes, we are always looking at the effects and ways to improve each class. Yes it does take quite a bit of work to do so, and like it was told to everyone already; there are higher things on the priority list at this time.
    I want to continue communication with players. It is always best to keep the ideas incoming, even though it may seem that changes take a bit longer at times. I will repeat to all once again, that simply because your suggestions are not implemented right away, it does not mean we have not considered them and plan to act upon them when time is available.
    Olihin
  17. ARCHIVED-goose1123 Guest

    Olihin wrote:
    If pvp armor actually took time, effort and skill to achieve; there would be no issue with pve armor becoming obsolete. The answer to this problem should not have been nerfing our choice of armor; but should have been- what can be done to balance the quality of pvp gear with the effort it takes to aquire it.
    Yes, people complained about crit mit on pvp gear being used in pve content in tso. However, that complaint was not so much that it was possible, but that it was rediculously easy to get that crit mit.
    Please stop trying to seperate our two types of gameplay.
  18. ARCHIVED-Sanser Guest

    You commented earlier that pvp weapons will be comming out, which is something we are all looking forwards to. Personaly I hope that they are not on sale for straight tokens, looking forwards to how they will be aquired.
    Are you considering the weapons to be straight DPS increasers, since we will have to choose over DPS or survivability? I imagine they might come with a 50% toughness decrease.
    Still looking forward.
  19. ARCHIVED-Forebian Guest

    Eliminate toughness for everyone but cloth-wearers.
    I get stun-locked and dead in less than 3 seconds on a regular basis. Without toughness my toon would fall over dead at the sight of an assassin.
    (this was a tongue-in-cheek comment)
  20. ARCHIVED-Wytie Guest

    Forebian wrote:
    No.
    Toughness should have been tweeked to each class providing a different % of damage reduction/ damage increase and or pvp crit mit.
    Not a flat cut in damage for everyone across the board before self damage reduction are considered. This is why toughness makes some classes with other gear and class skills so dam broken.

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