[Suggestion] Bio Lab Flow revision

Discussion in 'Ideas and Suggestions' started by Figment, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. Reddit: http://redd.it/171x6q

    SOI = spawn beacon prevention
    SOI gen = generator that powers SOI

    Rings represent defense perimeters and logistical travel distances.

    Note that in the right hand diagram, the flow is more linear. Every ring has some sort of option for spec ops to make the fight for the previous/next ring become easier (depending on defensive (next step: creating a plug) or offensive (previous step: removing a plug) perspective).

    On the left hand side, teleporters are in the control of the outpost owner (thus hardly ever the keep defenders - these are never used by defenders). In the right hand side diagram, the defenders and attackers can use the teleporters to cut logistical distance, once both sides are acquired. Taking either end blocks all traffic through the teleporters.

    The right hand side has no jumppads from outpost to base. There could be jumppads, but over short distances to get from CY to Wall, or from the CY to the keep ascent level.

    On the right hand side, the outposts cannot be used to ignore the walls and CY, rather, they form staging grounds to attack the walls and CY, from which the keep will be assaulted. This means that defenders can fight for the CY to protect the keep. Attackers can use Gal Drops to try and bypass the CY defenders.

    Note the length differences of the wall as well and that on the right hand side the wall is complete, with 1 or 2 less entrances. A smaller CY is easier to defend, especially if attackers can scale them all around.

    The SCU is right next to the spawn building. Once the SCU gen is down, the SCU can be attacked. If it falls, the spawns lose their shield. Attackers can then stsart using the airpad choke points to their advantage.

    A single CC is used so both defense can focus on holding or resecuring that and try to seal/plug attack routes at the choke points, while attackers have to keep attack routes open (TP CCs and airpad control). Single Gal Drops and spec ops attacks resecure attempts would become possible once more by breaking through the airpad defense, get to the CC (instant resecure vs timer hold) or getting the SCU up and sealing off teleport routes by capturing either end.

    The flow of the right hand side diagram should be far more natural (less confusing) and result in clear siege stages that can be walked in both offensive and defensive direction. The role of the Galaxy as a paratroop dropship and Sunderer as gate crasher (get into CY and reach gens, capture teleport C2 to stop ground vehicle acquisition) would increase significantly. The walls should become a lot more used than currently, since defenders require less troops at the actual keep during the CY siege (which makes a gal drop even more viable as less troops would be encountered inside). This also should increase the role of infiltrators as saboteurs and path creators (dome teleport control captures especially).

    • Up x 14
  2. I like the inside of Bio Labs how they are already. I like the generator, scu, spawn room placement, and the varied teleporters.

    I do like the idea of some catwalks around the outside. The whole lifting/jumping onto predetermined spots on the landing pad right outside that mouth isn't too fun. Having stairs to take up would be nice, if they're shielded.
  3. Saurva has this:

    The TP room is activated by the ownership of point D.

    Saurva is really, really close to being a great base.
    It has walls and a courtyard of interest.

    Yet the Satellite TP/Jump remains
    • Up x 6
  4. I think the inside of Bio Labs are perfect the way they are, the problem is it's just way too easy to get inside. An attacking force need only take the satellite base closest to the shield gen, MAX crash inside and then blow the gen, completely bypassing the courtyard directly below. Keeping the satellites as forward spawns only and moving the teleporters inside the courtyard (all three teleporters, not just one like early beta... we all know how that turned out) would add a much needed extra stage to the battle.

    I like the idea of fighting up those catwalks as well.
    • Up x 1
  5. The internal layout of the dome wouldn't change much really. Possibly there'd be a SCU room behind the spawn building, rather than in the middle of the dome courtyard.

    Beyond that, the only changes to the internal layout would be a control console right next to the teleporters.

    Higby stated before that the polygon count is why they haven't added a catwalk system in between (stairs would take too many polygons) and that the travel time would be 3 mins to get to the top. As a solution to that, I would say it's possible to consider reducing the height of the Bio Lab's support structure and use the legs as ramps by making them slightly less steep accordingly.

    PS: PSU discussion thread: http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=52204
  6. And there's no sign of them going anywhere anytime soon sadly.
  7. Arclegger Level Designer

    Saurva is the closest base to what you guys are asking for. Unfortunately not a lot of fighting takes place at Saurva (it is my favorite base btw).

    A lot of really good ideas here, the stairways up to the catwalks seems a little tedious but it looks nice. I'm not sure how fun fighting up a stairwell is, the people at the top of the stairwell would just get easy cert farmage. We have the anti gravity lifts up to the wings to avoid having to make a stairwell up there.

    When I'm working on Hossin or Searhus I'll try to look into making a larger footprint courtyard below the lab with the teleport rooms in the courtyard.

    Thanks for the feedback guys!
    • Up x 13
  8. Would be nice if you did include the stair system though. If the tops of the platform of the stairs were open to marksmen fire from adjacent sniper locations, say roof tops with stair access on a large 4 story building, it would help maintain the flow up the stairs. Its a concept I tried to keep in mind when I was mapping for Infantry Online, but ofcourse 2D angles of attack are much easier to maintain than 3D...
  9. I prefer the grav-lifts over stairs. Stairs are fine until you get 3-stories tall, after which you should have grav pads or jump pads.

    My favorite bio-lab grav-lifts are those where you have 2 yellow and 1 purple, so you can choose to not pop up at the exact same location. I just wish taller lifts would boost you up faster.

    My complaint about teleporters is that because they are not numbered, it's not always obvious where they are taking you to until you learn the map. At least with grav lifts, it's obvious where it leads. And jump pads are mostly obvious because they point in the direction of where they are going.

    I agree that teleporters should be inside the perimeter, like Suarva's "D" point. Being able to keep the attackers outside a perimeter until gate generators are down is important.
  10. You know I love the feature Fig but while the stairs is a step in the right direction I get what Arclegger is saying about it being a tough climb, hence the reason I suggested to you before putting in sloping ramps up with lots of cover (crates or the waist high walls you can crouch behind that are everywhere else) at least would give both defenders and attackers a chance, defenders would still have the high ground advantage.
  11. If you make the courtyard bigger the wall circumference becomes longer too! Saurva seems about right in circumference. Could you not make use of two of the larger buildings, place them on opposite ends of the CY and hide teleporters in there? :) They don't necessarily have to be really far from the central keep. In fact, I'd keep them close to the walk-routes up (could be you can get to the roof of the teleport building, then from the roof to the walls or keep ascension area, so have it be an intermediate building of a catwalk to wall).

    Not sure how possible it is to lower the entire dome, so the climb doesn't take as long? (Could actually try sinking the base of the building into the ground and put ramps up to ground level? Perhaps link that with some tunnels too?)

    Either way, thanks for looking into it! :)
  12. Good ideas there Figgy, but I agree with Arclegger that the stairs could be tedious. ALL the bases need more depth via infantry hackable/capturable obstacles of some type.

    Why would you put your favorite base design somewhere it rarely gets used? Move it maybe (Allatum)?

    Woa!! Please be careful when enlarging the footprint of any main bases in the game. Some bases already feel way too big for the smaller, and unavoidable, late night low-pop fights.

    Off Topic:
    In allot of ways I wish SOE would not have committed to the "650" per empire on a map malarkey. IMO, 300 would have been a perfectly acceptable starting point. Setting a ridiculously high bar that beats your code monkeys to death (poor McHurtz) and consequently delivering a sub-par gaming experience is not something I would call a "success", more like a "learning experience." Alas, we are far, far to deep down this rabbit hole to turn back. I just hope the Planetside franchise survives the MMO-BF3 era and eventually comes back to it's roots where gameplay > shock-factor.
  13. Saurva is also my favourite biolab in terms of design, too bad it's way on the edge of the continent.
    • Up x 1
  14. Amp plants are about right. So is the Suarva perimeter. Tech plants tend to be sprawling monstrosities that need a lot more bridges between buildings on the 2nd and 3rd levels.

    One solution I'd like to see is that the jump pads at each tower are powered by a generator under the grav lift level. Or a control point in a room below the grav lift base. Prevent attackers from playing hopscotch around the perimeter using those jump pads unless they take over the control point.

    My other long-term wish is that the lower level of a wall section between towers would be turned into a corridor that runs between the towers. Have a doorway that opens into the courtyard about halfway down, and the ends of the corridor would connect into a new lower level of the corner towers. Which would give us other places to put generators, control points, terminals. You would then have (3) ways to move between towers, a completely safe one (lower corridor), a moderately safe one (the top of the wall) and a fast one (the jump pads).
  15. Really? Here are some things wrong with Saurva.

    You can cap the entire facility with 100% influence by just holding D point.. Yes, you do not even have to set foot in the facility. There is only one satellite to spawn from and 2 ways to teleport into the base. Outside of needing a large force to hold the courtyard and patience, no one really even wants to bother with that base. Too far north for anyone to care about.
  16. I'd rather see ziplines on the wall's walkways, than jumppads between towers. All fights should be connected. Disconnections lead to issues. The jumppads are frequently used to generate free kills by placing an engi turret at the receiving end, so the pad doesn't work and the person is slammed into the turret. Other times, people wait with a shotgun at the point of appearance.

    A zipline that covers short sections at a time (for instance between two pieces of cover, would help more. I'd place this zipline on the courtyard side of the wall's walkway: shortest path and safest area for travel. It'd take slightly longer, but any fighting between sections of wall would be continuous, rather than interrupted over 100+m distances.

    Although you can't shoot someone out of the sky when they jump, you can execute them when they land. If you force people to use ziplines, they'll run into one another somewhere along the ziplines, disengage the ziplines and engage one another in fair combat.

    It would indeed be an idea to use the new tunnel capacity to burrow shield gens in a bunker system underneath the shielded courtyard entrance. This tunnel system could connect with other sections of tunnel underneath the courtyard, or be standalone.

    I'd also make a ballustrade catwalk over the shielded CY sections. You can walk there now accross a very thin line, but it's not exactly recommended.
  17. Well, isn't that great ?

    It's the closest equivalent of a siege. And forces people to fight for the surrounding outposts which otherwise would just be pointless. If every facility had that, we could make them very defensible yet have that small weakness.

    And you do set foot inside the facility; the walls are part of it.
    It's just not deep inside the core
    • Up x 1
  18. The problem with Saurva is the flow of the map in the south ensures there's no fight over it, not the flow around the base.

    With rectangular shaped maps, it's better to have a rectangular grid of warpgates. We got triangular warpgates on a square map, naturally the corners aren't used well because they don't fit in the flow of the map. Especially if that maps creates natural borders that do not invite to be passed just north of Allatum.
  19. Biolabs and most facilities just need be be completely redesigned from scratch, there's very little to salvage from the current designs, except the general shape. Buildings placed seemingly without much care with little regard to flow, same with cover, capture points the teleporter rooms, always vulnerable to being shot from virtually 360 degrees. So many problems.
  20. if i may,

    i've logged a few thousand hours playing games like rogue spear (both the old and new ones) in my formative gaming years. so i have just a little experience assaulting a stairway (and ladders). it may or may not prove applicable here, so feel free to take what you will.

    the problem the gravlifts have is that you A) pop over the edge by a good height, making you a clay pidgin before you get control, and b) i have no control regarding my ascent. i am in the fight after x seconds, and i cannot join the fight in halves. i'm all in and i cannot get a lay of the land before i attack because there is a giant landing pad in my way. the lifts are effectively a ladder that i cannot control my rate of movement in, which leads to...well we called it getting ladder *****.

    a well designed stairway will have multiple landings where the defenders can hold, but the attacking force can shoot back at (at a rather exposed angle though) exposed exterior stairs, as shown in the OP, would also be exposed to sniper/ designated marksman fire. ideally the assaulting force would establish this cover, and the marksman would join the team when the unit cleared the last landing and had established cover on the stairwell exit. the defenders would have their own marksmen on counter-sniping duty
    this also has the additional effect of making it advantageous for the attackers to properly secure the ground under the biolab. the defenders can challenge this control by pushing out from the vehicle bay, and if successful, could execute flanking maneuvers to the air pads.

    the exit of the stair should be handled like any other fatal funnel; the attacking force needs to have some sort of access to cover after clearing the stair, usually somewhere off to the left or the right. the goal of the defender is to hit the attacker in that short sprint between cover.

    for game play purposes, you may want to establish a small 'house' a the top of the stair with a force field window and a 90 degree exit that does not face towards the biolab entrance proper. that would force defenders who want to spam explosives into the exit into a CQB situation. high risk, high reward.

    the forcefield window would allow attackers to suppress defenders attempting hit allies exiting the stair.
    an interesting mechanic here would be to have this forcefield on a switch. normally the force field would stop all fire, but when the switch is hit, it shuts down for 5-10 seconds. this allows players to assess the situation, but it avoids the situation we have now with spawn forcefields where one player can shoot another with impunity. instead, the attacker must expose themselves to fire in order to suppress the defenders for their teammates gain

    the big advantage to this system is it allows attackers to dictate their rate of entry into combat. if the need exists, they can hold at a semi protected position, note how the enemy is positioned, and suppress them accordingly. as it stands now with the grav lifts, one needs to run to a limited set of cover points that are already locked down by enemy fire, because if they do not, they will be cut down immediately
    • Up x 2

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