Improving Dogfights by reducing turning rate for slow aircraft.

Discussion in 'Vehicle Discussion' started by Rothnang, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. Right now in this game there are a couple huge things that really dumb down dogfights, but easily the biggest one is that you can stop an aircraft dead, and still pull quick maneuvers and turn it. Damn near every time you go up against someone who is an OK pilot they will pull the same lame move on you when they realize they can't shake you by flying in a circle, they just slam on the breaks and turn around, and instantly their fotunes are vastly imroved with one quick maneuver that really has no place in a dogfight.

    The second the guy you're following simply stops you have basically 3 options:

    1. Stop as well and fight him head to head. This is especially idiotic if you invested in the dogfight airframe thinking it would make you good at dogfighting, and the other guy invested in the High G airframe knowing that he can always just stop moving and give himself the advantage.

    2. Keep moving at full speed and go past him, now he's behind you and has the upper hand.

    3. Run into him to spite that cheesy mofo.


    I think that an aircraft that isn't moving should not be able to turn anywhere near as quickly as one that's going at a good clip. You have no airflow over your control surfaces, the VTOL engines really only point straight down, there is simply absolutely no reason why a Planetside Style aircraft should be able to effortlessly do rolls and flips while standing still. Gameplay wise allowing people full maneuverability without moving is just absolutely destroying dogfights in the dumbest possible way.

    Please get rid of this cheesy crap and give us a game where stopping in the middle of a dogfight is not the best and most logical move because no matter what your opponent does to respond to it at that point you're always better off than having him on your six.
  2. Can't you just fill him with lead when he stops?
  3. aeehm... welcome in modern Air Combat?
  4. How close are you sitting behind your target in your dogfights anyway? If you are a decent distance away if your target does stop you would already have a bead on him and can tear him to pieces for stopping.
  5. Sure I can, but he can turn around and start shooting back, or simply fire his engines, blow past me and reset the fight that way. Either way simply stopping in mid air leaves him in a better position than he started with.

    Uh, what? Show me an aircraft currently in existence that can actually do any of that stuff. Even VTOL planes which can hover in place simply fall out of the sky if they roll while doing so.
  6. Than do the same with him?
  7. Sure, currently you have no choice than to engage in dogfights that don't move and fit the High G airframe because all others are pointless because of full maneuverability while stationary.
  8. If you are looking for a flight simulator, this is not it. If your enemies are able to pull off this so called "cheesy" manoeuvre that gives them such an unfair advantage according to you then maybe you should start practicing it yourself and add it to your own skillset.
  9. It takes only one full certed clip of Rotary bullets to down an ESF. Are you telling me you cannot do that much the minute your target, STOPS in midair, TURNS around to look at you to start shooting, which by the time he does you should have already have a leg up on him and would win since you are already aiming at him. It is not a stupid gunbattle, it's your target trying to win a race where he is already far behind. Where's his advantage?

    If he does rocket past you, can't you simply pull the same maneuver he did and stop/turn after he flies past you? He's running away from you. If he's not aiming at you then it gives you all the time you need to do the same turn, get behind him again, and start the dance all over, most likely with him already damaged for having stopped and turned with you from before.

    And don't start throwing logic in a game where a faction has anti-gravity tanks that can float sideways. Learn. Adapt. Excel.
  10. Still with Zero Speed from the Main Thruster you are stil very maneuverable. Try it like a Chopper. Staffing left or Right, play with the altitude. There is a lot you can do.
  11. It's not an unfair advantage, it just dumbs down the game by removing any reason to fit anything other than the High G airframe because there is no good reason to ever employ any other tactic to try and get someone off your tail.

    Which airframe you have should determine your survival strategy in an air to air encounter. Racers should try to outrun their pursuers, dogfighters should try to outturn them, High G maneuvers should try to step on the breaks and change their course rapidly to confuse an opponent - however, right now stepping on the breaks is always the best choice. It has no downsides, you don't lose altitude or maneuverability or anything else in the process.

    Adapting to badly designed gameplay is like acquiring a taste for poo. Sure, you might enjoy it afterward, but you're still eating poo.
  12. Tell this the guy with the A2A rockets. Still standing while the other coudl easily lock you is still suicide. Same thnig when you are damaged and your enemy not. You still will die in a stillstanding Shotout.

    Indeed dynamic vectortruster changes dogfights dramatically.

    I love thi forum. In every thread the same. "I dont like this element of gameplay so it MUST BE BAD AND BROKEN AND CORRUPTET AND THE DEVS ARE STILL IDIOTS CAUSE I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT!"
  13. The devs got this aspect of the game wrong, yes. Games like Freelancer or X-Wing vs TIE-Fighter where competitive fighter combat was a big part of them did it better. Some people show their support of a game by trying to nudge it towards an even more polished state, instead of blindly defending bad decisions.
    If you're the kind of person that just adapts to whatever is going on anyways then why does it matter if something is changed to a state where others might enjoy it more?

    The problem is when it completely takes over and your choices of airframe are basically: "Good at the one thing that always wins" and "Not goot at the one thing that always wins."
  14. Slamming on the brakes and trying to turret is quite clearly not always the best choice, as there are an incredible number of variables that go into determining what is and isn't going to be the best maneuver in any given situation. I find slamming on the brakes in a fight with more than one competent opponent almost never beneficial, especially in a big dogfight with large numbers of friendly and enemy aircraft. Your chances of dying spectacularly and quickly by either being crashed into or simply shot down exponentially increase as your airspeed approaches 0 KPH, because guess what, stationary targets are easier to hit.

    If you can't kill a STATIONARY fighter with our horrifyingly powerful rotary cannons, or just Breaker/Hellfire/Photon-rocket his dumb *** for stopping in air combat, you should rightly lose the initiative. 'Turreting-up' is only viable when A) you're in a 1v1, and B) your pursuer is a baddie. Otherwise, the OTHER x-number of hostile aircraft (and/or non-terrible pilot on your six) will shoot you down instantly, as should be expected.

    I think the problem that all you flight-simmers have with Planetside 2 is you think the ESFs are jet AIRcraft. They are not. Treat the ESFs like helicopters, but with multiple vectored thrusters instead of rotors. The crazy maneuvers that are possible with this system are what make it fun. Who cares if the flight mechanics aren't realistic. What's important is that it's enormously enjoyable to pilot both fighters and Liberators in PS2, once you get the hang of it.
  15. Its not. The put in a gameply system that you doesn't like.

    its funyn you say that cause in this games you still could make the same. Reduce Speed to Zero, sitting around somewhere while moving the Face-Direction.

    In special to the games you named. This games are ont realistic in anyway. its causal World Wars 2 in Space. The Ships all move like WW2 Planes without such things like gravitation or aerodynamic drag. In my opinion not really funny cause its very simple and easy.

    Real Spacefights should have 6 Degrees of Freedom and will look like Miner Wars or Battlestar Galactica.


    Why do you do that?

    No im not such a person and i dont blindly defending. I just diagree with you.

    Flightgames you named are 3-Degree Fighter. They only can role, pitch and fly forward. Dogfights with this mechanic are still very simple. Try to stay behind the enemy and shoot.

    Doghfights in PS2 are still more difficult. You have 6 Degress of freedom you must care about. Youcan fly forward, backward, strafing left/right, higher/lower Altitute, pitch, yaw and roll.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/6DOF_en.jpg/330px-6DOF_en.jpg

    Indeed this systemes changes dogfights dramatitcaly cause you have a lot of new maneuvers to fly. Turning on a Point, Strafing fyling higher while looking to the ground or getting deeper while looking up. And its more difficult like a space game cause you have do handle the gravitation while flying this manouvers.

    Look at this:



    i never sad that hte new maneuvers are allwaays win. Only you thelling this the hole time.
  16. There is dogfighting in this game? This is news to me! :eek:
  17. But it's gravity that should keep people from rolling while standing still without crashing their aircraft...
  18. 4. Rotate around, get your thrusters to flip downwards, orbit the stationary target while pumping him full of bullets.

    5. Follow from a slightly further distance, ruin him before he gets a chance to turn around.

    etc.

    Stopping in a dogfight in most cases is a futile maneuver against any good pilot that is more likely to get you killed than to give you the upper hand.
  19. Your first piece of advice once again forces you to go High G airframe if you want to have good capabilities to do that.

    The second piece of advice assumes the enemy litterally just stops completely, and doesn't start using VTOL maneuvers himself, which most of the time he will.
  20. People stop?

    Really?

    HHAHAHA please PLEASE try and stop while I'm chasing you... PLEASE! I'll just stop too and waste you before you complete your turn... what's more is I can just vert thrust circle you while your stopped keeping out of your LoS

    I shake a tail by... I dunno... OUT MANEUVERING THEM (no airframe at all yet BTW... I'm actually flying the worst possible dogfighting configuration (RPs w/ no airframe, or defesive ability, or utility) yet have no problems dogfighting)

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