Magrider Maneuverability

Discussion in 'Vehicle Discussion' started by Higby, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. Higby Developer

    Hey all -

    I've spent a lot of time reading threads here, tweets & reddit posts from a lot of VS players upset with the changes to Magriders - I wanted to respond to a few things and let you know what we're up to.

    I came in today exclusively to dedicate some time to driving around in the Magrider and checking out how it feels compared to the Vanguard and Prowler. I tried out all the various performance slot items, went to lots of suggested locations in the world and pitted the vehicles against eachother to see where the complaints are coming from. Now, i'm not a dedicated Mag pilot, but I've got a lot of hours in a Vanguard vs. Magriders so I have a decent idea of how they play and what they need to be successful. I made a bunch of notes about some issues that I found to send to the vehicle coders / designers to look into.

    - There are definitely some issues with getting hung up on small bumps / inclines that are above 40 degrees but are too small to seem like they should impact movement - we will fix this.
    - strafing, and especially strafing up an incline that's not perpendicular to non-sloped forward movement affects forward velocity in some situations where it probably shouldn't - we will look into ways to improve that.
    - I wasn't able to find any real areas where I could get places with a Prowler or a Vanguard that my Magrider couldn't get, but, that doesn't mean they don't exist - I just didn't find any.
    - When "stalled" on a steep hill, Magburner doesn't get you over it anymore. This is intentional. We have a limit to the angle of the hill that we want armor of all types to be able to traverse. Right now it's probably a bit too constrained on Magriders, and we will probably pull it back somewhat, but, Magburner will not allow you to traverse steeper angles than normal movement will allow.

    I've seen some posts about strafing speed being nerfed so now it's harder to dodge incoming fire. We didn't nerf strafing speed on the default or any performance chassis, although there may issues perceived to have to do with strafing speed while moving forward that actually have to do with new code which arrests movement on steep slopes (again, something we will look into smoothing out, especially the deceleration when you initially strafe while moving forward). The biggest impact here is probably the enemy MBT velocity changes (especially in AP rounds) that make it harder to dodge incoming fire, not your own maneuverability.

    The vision for the Magrider has always been to have it be the most maneuverable MBT. It's advantages come from it's agility, mitigating damage by avoidance, and literally running circles around the other MBTs in combat. However, that does not mean that they're designed to traverse any terrain in the game, ignoring roads and and instead going over mountains or avoiding bridge chokes and instead climbing up cliffs to short-circuit continental flow. They need to be able to smoothly traverse uneven / rough terrain and out maneuver other MBTs in armor conflicts but still obey the basic terrain 'boundaries' that are present in the game. That's where we think Magriders should be, and they're not there right now. There are definitely some tweaks we need to work on to make sure that they get there.

    As always, thanks for the feedback on these issues, it helps a lot!

    -
    mh

    Edit: I wanted to add something quick about MBT balance overall. The general balance for MBT vs MBT is difficult to paint a complete picture of in a neat chart, due to the combined arms nature of the game. We have a ton of different data from time usage, # of tanks fielded, # of shots fired, accuracy, top weapons used to kill, average lifetime and etc that we use to make determinations about game balance. One metric that is important as an indicator of balance is overall tank vs tank K : D ratio, now, it definitely doesn't tell the entire story when it comes to "how effective is ____ unit", but when tanks are significantly outperforming their empire counterparts in K : D vs each other it's a clear sign of a problem. Here's a chart showing the last 30 days of tank vs tank K : D worldwide. Note: GU 02 was on 2/2/2013, on 2/3/2013 we had an issue with Prowlers and Vanguards not able to fire their main cannons. As you can see, there was a pretty inarguable imbalance with the Magrider prior to the patch. When people ask why we did such an "extreme" change, this is why, and this is the result - as you can see it's not perfect, but we're in the right ballpark now. Again, I don't want anyone thinking that I said this constitutes the whole story on tank balance, it absolutely does not, this is just one view on effectiveness of MBTs vs eachother.


    [IMG]
    EDIT: Previously this image was incorrect in the "Magrider vs. Prowler" graph on the bottom left, it's been updated.
    • Up x 124
  2. thanks for listening and looking into it!
    • Up x 13
  3. Nice read, honest points.

    Than you.
    • Up x 8
  4. So there are issues but not enough to match the decibel of cries from the VS community. Got it.
    • Up x 19
  5. Would just mean more cannon fodder for my Vanguard.

    All jokes aside the Magriders have been feeling easier to kill lately.
  6. Good stuff
  7. Thanks, I'm glad that you took the time to try this out! I'll put an announcement on the vanu-sovereignty.com news page asking players to report on locations where a Magrider can't climb but another MBT can.
    • Up x 1
  8. This is why so many people left VS??

    Ive been playing with a bunch of cry babies..
    • Up x 35
  9. All hail lord Zotz
    • Up x 4
  10. I'm NC, but I appreciate you coming in on your day off to check this out for us.

    The suits should cut you a bonus check.
    • Up x 19
  11. Don't worry, there's the same ammount of cry babies on every faction.
    VS was just hit harder because at release day it was considered the OP faction - so the FotM sheep went there.
    • Up x 8
  12. Actually it sounds like he's got the issues we've brought up fairly covered. This on top of the overabundance of lockons and their being most effective vs magriders, as their survivability being based on mobility is negated entirely by them.
    • Up x 8
  13. Higsby that's good and all, and thank you for taking time to specifically look into the Magrider and compare them to other tanks.

    But why wasn't this trialed and tested first before you nerfed the maneuverability? Changes are a big thing and should take time to test and calibrate till the point you the developer want them to perform at. Which clearly wasn't done.

    You cannot seriously have an excuse which responds to getting caught on minor road bumps. It clearly wasn't tested properly if at all.

    Please PLEASE!!!! Test all the changes PROPERLY before you make them!!! Or just start a test server so we can do it and save you all at SOE a lot of time!
    • Up x 7
  14. Unfortunately "armor conflicts" are decided by infantry, not other armor. Simply put, tanks are infantry killing machines, not tank killing machines. Infantry kills tanks.....tanks kill infantry.....this is how the game currently plays.

    Before someone pokes their head up and says something about anti armor rounds.....no one uses them. It's another fantasy that players wish was reality.

    If you're balancing tanks against how well they kill other tanks, you're doing it wrong.
    • Up x 17
  15. @Higby

    The descriptions of the magriders state that it CAN traverse terrain to places where other MBTs can not. We're not asking to get up on a huge hill, but I find it stupid that when it comes to climbing it should be entirely on par with the other MBTs. I understand it from a balancing point of view, but are we not aiming for assymmetrical balance here?

    Or just fix the description and maybe people will shut up in a month about it. Anyway, thanks for posting this and looking into it :)
    • Up x 13
  16. Thank you for posting on these forums :)
    • Up x 15
  17. Why do you think TR prefers the HE tank? Cause the AP tanks is USELESS against a mag, because the power of a mag is too GREAT against a prowler.

    How stupid we would be to turn and give our enemy our LARGEST side to EASILY target and shoot at?

    No matter how you want to rationalize this, too much is too much. Driving circles around other tanks is just stupid.

    Vanguard has shield, mag has silly agility and prowler has... nothing? Oooh... yeah I forgot we can anchor, yeah even more stupidity involve here, make CERTAIN that your enemy has a perfect shot on you cause you ain't moving now. Prowler has nothing and as long this is the case we will never run AP tanks because we would be dumb to do so.

    I don't want to face a mag because I'd be an idiot to face a mag in my tank, what ever I do, the first seconds during the encounter the mag will get 1 shot on me because I'll obviously miss because of that stupid side to side strafing. The second shot will come ONLY if have found a way to dodge which won't happen because I am so damn busy trying to find an angle at which I can either strafe or move up and down a hill. Oh! Did I forgot to mention that, if I was stupid enough to move from side to side exposing my longest side, that isn't actually strafing because not only I expose my longest side by this longest side represents so a large exposure that it's not really strafing at all compare to a mag.

    They are 4 major problems with this game:

    1. Rocket pod in regard to exploiting the rear armor of tanks in one run you can down a tank in 3 seconds flat... yes 3 seconds flat.
    2. Libs... that was corrected to some degree but many of us agree that libs have no place in this game.
    3. Mags... having BOTH hover AND the ability to run like hell if they are in a bind. 2 things not ONE quality but TWO.
    4. NC Max... which all of us cannot wait for the damn nerf to be imposed on them because it's silly, just silly power.

    As for the prowler, I don't even bother taking one out anymore, I know if I take a prowler out, less than 5 minutes later it'll be destroyed and I'd have to wait 11 minutes or more resources to take another and that just not acceptable anymore. They are TOO many anti-ground weapons compared to anti-air now, too many things too look for compare to air, I gota look for mines, I gota look for c4, I gota look for launchers, I gota look for that moronic AV weapon which by the way is as effective against armor as it is against infantry, and obviously I gota look for damn air which will **** my rear in 3-4 second flat.

    The state of armor is as such for TR, but please don't change anything, if it was me, I'd take out totally the jet ability of a mag but you won't do that of course and you wouldn't give the prowler a REAL quality which would allow it to become a AP tank too.

    As long as the prowler doesn't have a REAL quality to it, I won't face either mags with their silly agility or vanguard with their shield, because with both they will ALWAYS.... ALWAYS.... ALWAYS have one shot over me no matter what, one will dodge my shots and the other will put a shield up and what exact will I put up? WHAT? Nothing...

    Oh and PLEASE don't even mention the useless crappy volcan which has ZERO damage when shot at range. And don't tell me I should keep the distance between me and the mag down so I can use this magical IMMENSE firepower on it because by the freaking time I get close to the mag I'll already be down to 10% armor, thank you. And I would remain you that my main weapon in my tank is NOT my secondary weapon but my primary one even though you guys seem to think that, now, the prowler's primary is the volcan because that's the only way you can argue the prowler has ANY chance to survive a mag encounter.
    • Up x 3
  18. In PS1 the Mag could float over rivers and this was a HUGE strategic ability. The ability to go over mountains in PS2 afforded the same strategic ability. Now that has been removed. The mag has had a fairly weighty nerf on an old and expected benefit that honestly, no one was complaining about.

    Strategic abilities in no way impact tactical combat which was the main concern of all the people upset at the Mag. Most complaints had to do with straffing shots... The damage and velocity upgrades the other tanks have gotten HAVE GREATLY REDUCED THIS "tactical" benefit of the mag.

    Would it be possible to see if the game balanced out with just the massive buffs?
    If not could we just have let the other tanks get where the mag can get?

    Why take "FUN" out when you don't have too? Either spread the fun around or leave it alone.

    Vanu don't complain in game much about the Mag from a combat perspective, everyone is ready to quit however cause they can no longer yell wheeeeeeheeeeeeewww and go sailing straight up the side of a mountain and come crashing down like lunatics... Vanu ... /shrug... guess we'd rather surf than fight.

    FUN... it's what games are about.
    • Up x 14
  19. Well the situation wouldn't be that bad if we had, you know. Some proper water in this game >_>
    • Up x 6
  20. How does this in any way have to do with magriders and their percieved problems?

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