The ESF debate; the clue is in the [F]

Discussion in 'Vehicle Discussion' started by Mietz, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. I guess you haven't looked up recently.
  2. i fly reaver A2AMs with a needle nosegun. i have no trouble correctly doing my job as ground support while keeping the sky clear. rocket pods are overrated.
  3. I can solve your problem very quickly here:
    This is not real life. Dont waste your time or mine comparing it.

    I'm a pilot irl, flying in PS2 is as dumbed down as flying gets. Only consider what would make the game fun, if people wanted a combat flight sim, they'd play F4.0.

    From a gameplay aspect, and all "realism" arguments aside, the liberator has a very good role. It can dole out ungodly amounts of damage compared to an "ESF" with pods, and it doesn't need to return for more ammo nearly as frequently. The real reasons you see far fewer of them is:
    1. You need to get a crew together. Sure, you can go with a random dude or 2, but they might be clueless
    2. You need good air superiority from your ESFs, Libs will go down fast w/o good support (teamwork anyone?)

    It's easier for people to just hop in an ESF and multi-role, and there's no problem with that. But the lib, when used properly, is far better than ESF at ground pounding.

    That's because A2A is ez mode.
    • Up x 1
  4. Thanks for agreeing with me.
  5. I'm not agreeing with you, you're stating that the lib and ESF roles are too similar. While they are similar, the lib does far more damage to ground than an ESF will ever do. Your argument is that the lib is underused because its similarity, whereas the truth to it being underused is in the two points I brought up. Neither of which has anything to do with how similar or not the roles are.

    I did forget to include a 3rd point:
    The lib no longer has bombs as a stock option. If they included that as a stock option as it was in closed beta, you would see far more lubs than you do now.

    All that to say, if I were out to go wreck things on the ground, I'd take a lib over my scythe with A2G any day. Personally I prefer dogfighting, so I generally stick with ESF and just do what I can with the pods when I can.
  6. I guess you are into exaggeration.
  7. No, no I'm positive you are agreeing with me.
  8. These are the people who keep people like me from dumping my limited rocket supply on ground units. I have no choice but to stop what I'm doing and get out of dodge or else I get a missile up the tailpipe. If people are constantly getting hounded by rockets then you or your teamates need to shift focus for a moment. I spend most of my time in the air going back for more ammo and dodging missile locks. As far as rockets being used against air units, why should they get a damage nerf if I'm able to score a hit with dumbfire rockets on a target that moves in 3 dimensions?

    I agree that there needs to be some major changes to aircraft, more specific the lib tail gun, but to single out one weapon type that has already ungone the changes needed since beta seems like overkill.
  9. i love flying lib as well, but right now their poor banking + horrible tailgun makes it impossible, a tailgun cannot even shake off a good pilot before you get detroyed. it needs a higher elevation angle because as it is, if you get above a lib, they can do nothing about it until they die or their support sees you.
  10. This is quite cool. In beta I used to escort libs and kill the ESFs that would try to put them down, I'd like to see this idea in the near future. It may dissuade people to focus too much on Air to Ground suppport.
  11. The ESFs are too busy spamming rocket pods to support liberators.
    The thing with rocket pods is there's nowhere you can't shoot them - the liberator's "mortar" always has to fire down therefore if you get under something you're more or less covered. The ESF can just fly wherever it wants, spam pods through windows, and generally destroy infantry.
    "Only consider what would make the game fun"
    At present, rocket pods ruin the game for everyone who isn't a flyboy. If people aren't using them to farm certs they use them for much the same reason as a lot of hackers say they use aimbot. Which is, to troll and ruin other people's enjoyment in a game, probably to make up for the fact that they suck and can't enjoy it themselves.
    As the name of this thread says, "The clue is in the F". It is not okay that people can get in an ESF and instantly kick *** at everything - the ESF is supposed to be the vehicle that clears the skies for their faction so that liberators and galaxies have an easier time attacking the ground. It doesn't matter that the liberator is better at 'ground pounding' than the ESF when used properly, it matters that the ESF is so effective at it in the first place.
    I don't understand why you're claiming that people want realism and don't care about fun by wanting the ESFs to be less powerful against the ground. The idea is that everyone has a good time playing the game and that infantry get to be more than just flyboy cannon fodder - not that removing pods makes the game more realistic or something.
  12. Give bonus XP for running border CAP and escort Fighter Escort missions? Me and one other Mossi in my squad ran CAP for our Liberator. We'd cycle in to intercept and deter harassers, rearm, and assist in attacking Sunderers.

    I got perhaps a dozen kills just chasing off fighters?
  13. I've spent a good amount of time as infantry as well, even armor. I have yet to be killed by rocket pods since open beta began. ESFs are easy to scare off, if you're getting pounded by one, you're doing something wrong.
  14. That's the problem, we aren't getting killed by one ESF.
    We can scare one away only to have three more take its place. Not sure what it's like on your server but on mine you can't walk 5 meters without a swarm of them overhead, probably firing their rocket pods.
  15. It isn't uncommon to see packs of 2-3 reavers or scythes combing a battlefield for Sunderers, infantry lines, and tanks racking up dozens of kills. One reaver can kill more than a liberator without needing someone else to do their job for them. The 'disadvantage' of having to be closer to the fight doesn't really come into play until you have at least 3 MAX's or two fully-manned Sunders or four G2A heavies. Anything less and the ESF runs out of rockets before it runs out of health.

    That's not to say I haven't shoved a HEAT round from a lightning into a ballsy ESF for half its health. TBH, a AT/HEAT tank shell should OHKO a fighter easy, considering how near-impossible it is to get a hit with a no-refire, heavily arcing weapon with a vertical aim limit against a modest-size, variable speed, highly maneuverable aircraft that only needs to zero you in on one pass to kill you, or carpet you twice.
  16. Totally agree that any tank round that isn't built to fight infantry should OHK an ESF. Maybe even the infantry rounds as well. Man those are fun kills though aren't they? Every time I do it I'm like "**** YEAH!"

    And yes, that is one situation. But get 2-3 libs together and there will be no ground targets left for ESFs. Its very situational, but the ESF is nowhere near as effective at clearing ground. I'm not saying its bad, but it really doesn't compare. If you watch video of even the best ESF pilots they will rarely get more than 2-3 kills in any single attack run. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything above 4 infantry kills in a single rocket strafe. I've piloted a lib where my gunner racked up 3-4 kills every single clip. An ESF generally has to disengage to reload to prevent themselves from being an easy target, while the Lib just keeps pounding away.
  17. What server you on? I'm on Waterson. I'd love a server with more air :D

    But regardless, even when i'm inf and there's 5 enemy ESFs overhead, I still have yet to be spammed by pods. Probably because the HA SAM is so prevalent. You don't even need to fire at them, you can just lock them for a second, lock another, then another, and scare all three into moving. Add a MAX and/or whatthehell ever that **** AA tank is, ground will dominate air. It's all about how the team works together. If you're trying to play inf with no AA support, you're doing it wrong. That doesn't mean pods are OP. Just like if I go solo with a scythe and pods and try to take on a full squad with good support, I don't go crying AA is OP. That's just a stupid tactical decision on my part.
  18. By this analogy, then, ESF's are just about right for killing infantry. Out of the box, the Lightning can terrorize infantry with a single volleys of HEAT shells in the hands of a good pilot. With an investment in HE rounds, the lightning is a beast against infantry. A lightning can, well played, take out a MBT with multiple volleys and good maneuvering with the stock armament.

    Lessee...out of the box, the ESF can use it's main cannon to strafe ground targets, if the pilot is any good, but is not likely to terrorrize them. It can likewise, with patience and good piloting, strafe and destroy armor. With a cert investment, the ESF can terrorize infantry with single volleys of HEAT rockets and, with a good pilot and multiple passes, destroy MBTs.

    Seems pretty close to me, according to your lightning=ESF analogy.

    I cannot address liberators, as I do not fly them.
  19. One big difference, the ESF has no weakness and the lightning can't kill air. If a lightning wants to attack air they lose all ability to shoot ground. So if air (ESFs specifically) wants to attack land they should lose all ability to attack air effectively and vise-versa.
  20. - Give Libs a real AA gun for their tail spot

    - Reduce dmg of A2G pods against aircraft to nearly zero
    - Tie the pods to the main gun, so A2G rockets always get you AntiGround maingun. (same with A2A)
    This way the ESF becomes more specific roles

    maybe:
    - Add a minimum speed to being able to fire rocket pods, so its less easy to farm infantry while just hovering
    (and the fighter get a more jet-like style of attack)

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