Why are AA maxes FAR more effective than their Vehicular Counterpart?

Discussion in 'Vehicle Discussion' started by Spadar, Nov 23, 2012.

  1. Honestly now. We've been bouncing up against this problem since early Beta.

    As a pilot I would 1000% rather go up against 10 Skyguards than 10 Bursters. Why?


    • Render Range: maybe 800m? Ballpark guess here.
    • Similar damage compared to a dual burster max.
    • Can die in about one full salvo of Breaker Rockets. - This is another ballpark guess here, I don't ground pound often.
    • Large target, easy to hit.
    • Counts as a tank, meaning they can only be pulled at bases in contact with a friendly tech plant, or the warpgate.
    Dual Burster Max:

    • Render Range: 200m Maximum, usually times much lower.
    • Similar damage.
    • Takes around 1.5 full salvos to kill.
    • Infantry sized target.
    • Can be pulled ANYWHERE. Including any AMS sunderer.
    The whole mechanic of having a unit that can engage their enemy at ranges of upwards to a kilometer, but cannot be seen or engaged until within 200M is ridiculous. This has been an ongoing problem, and evidently something simple like increasing MAX render range cannot be done, or it would have been done already.

    To be honest, I would be all for completely revamping AA MAX capabilities into something that has an engagement range that reflects their render range. If this cannot be done, remove them altogether. It's a broken mechanic that makes for terrible gameplay. It's not much different than letting infiltrators run around perfectly stealthed at all times, but making them only use pistols. It doesn't matter how much you decrease their damage, it will always be a broken mechanic. If a change like that were to go through, Skyguards would need a serious overhaul as well. They're lackluster at best.

    The only reason Bursters can be so effective against aircraft is due to their ability to be used as a team. Take a handful of them, wait until some poor unsuspecting ESF comes a little too close, and mow the bastard down. He'll never see it coming, you don't render. And his friends won't have a clue where you are, since your projectiles don't render either. Skyguards don't have this luxury. They have a giant stream of brightly lit projectiles pointing right to where they are. They can't hide in buildings, and can be damaged from as far away as they can damage their target.

    There have been a number of suggestions about G2A floating about, most of them along the lines of "AIR IS OP BUFF AAA". However what could we do to help fix this scenario?

    I would suggest expanding the roles vehicular based AA can fill. Essentially adding more weapons in the AA arena to fill different roles. There are any number of these that could be done, but I'll throw out some ideas. Mind you these are just that, ideas. Most of them haven't been seriously thought through, but you'll get the general idea.

    Assuming they'll be mounted on a lightning:

    A lock on missile platform.
    None of that fire-and-forget stuff. Something where you can maintain a lock, painting a target, and continue to fire off a stream of low damage missiles.

    A heavier version of the current Skyguard.
    Higher damage, longer range, but the high recoil would force you to "deploy" your lightning to help reduce the shock, otherwise it would be extremely inaccurate. Essentially you sacrifice your mobility for higher damage and effective range.

    Current Skyguard:
    Pretty much as is.

    A Non-Flak based alternative:
    Maybe something with a slower ROF, high projectile speed, a low bullet drop, and high damage. It would require direct hits, and probably only be effective in the hands of a good shot or against larger targets.
    • Up x 4
  2. Sorry, didnt read your post..

    MAX AA was always balanced

    Skyguard (AA) was balanced, then the flyboys cried and got it nerfed so now they can hover spam their rockets again, until someone takes out an AA max ofc..
    SKYGUARD is more like a LOLGUARD
    • Up x 2
  3. They got to do something aboute the Render Range, like is retarted right now, im fine with em being what they are, but kinda **** you cant se em until ur almost ontop of em.
  4. atleast your breaker rockets can kill things in one pass... Hellfires area pile of crap compared.. sure we get bigger clip and faster fire rate but thats crap considering you can never get them all to hit,
  5. Shouldn't you just be expecting AA in any grouping of infantry?

    I'm not sure where this shots-don't-render thing comes from. The trail of flak is by far the easiest way to tell where a burster max is, heh.
  6. You're ignoring things from the pilots perspective. The trail of flak from a Burster is not visible unless you're within their render range, which is very short.
  7. b0b

    Pretty much all that's needed. Lower effective range, increase damage to compensate. Wish they would have played around with this idea in beta. Another thought would be to allow explosives to hit players that haven't rendered so if you KNOW there's a MAX on an air pad you could grab a lib or whatever and lay waste to the air pad from a decent distance.
  8. Well i agree about the hate of "invisble flak shot hitting you from nowwhere from MAXs". But i like the skyguard ALOT.

    If you give your position out on long range its your own fault. Had some epic moments with the skyguard and a pretty suprised ESF pilot on the wrong end of my skyguard.

    MAXes arent eevn a threat on long range the same for Skyguard dont use them on that range. Let the ESF come and see them burn when they find them self in a flak barage. One clip from teh skyguard into the ESF at close/midrange when hovering is deadly for every ESF.

    Wrong, you only see the trails of those that are rendered. If you are up in the sky and a MAX is shooting you you will not see any trails. The only trails you will see are Skyguard or AA turret.

    The moment you see the AA-Trail from MAXes you are near the ground like 100-150m or in heavy battles under 100m above the MAX.

    Or explain to me why a gunner in a Lib cant see the trails of Flak hitting me that comes from the ground....
  9. AAA is balanced in the macro scale, as it should be in PS2.

    Make these threads go away, this is practically a copy/paste of a thousand beta threads on the same subject.

    As a guy who plays libs, tanks, and infantry, the current state is damn near perfect.
  10. Burster AA is a bit overpowered for what they do. They have the easiest to aim of all the AA, Do more damage per hit then a SG, render at the range of infantry (meaning ESF's can't see them OR there tracers rounds unless they are right on top of them) cost car less resources, have a far shorter cooldown, can be spawned at Sunderers or bases without any vehicle pad.

    Skyguard's are more mobile once spawned sure, but a burster max can just hop in the platoons sunderer and hop out when aircraft fly by.

    Really AA is mostly balanced, except for there ranges. I think AA, ESPECIALLY burster maxes should be localized AA. Getting shot from a tower that is barely within render distance is stupid. If that person in that turret wants to get kills, he should have to get at least semi-close to the battle, not sit so far in friendly territory he has no chance of getting killed.
  11. Uhh... You just quoted me... Told me I was wrong... and proceeded to repeat what I said... XD
  12. The only advantage a Dual Burster has over a Reaver is that the game prioritizes loading/rendering aircraft and vehicles over players. You get a ESF pilot with a crappy computer it just compounds the problem. I mean the only reason why aircraft don't obliterate those platforms full of AA maxes is because you can't see them. It's the same reason why the AA/AV turrets die constantly but a pad of 4 Dual Burster MAXes can just sit up on top for an hour completely unmolested.

    This is a game engine issue and not a balance issue.
    • Up x 1
  13. :D sorry ith just late or better said early in the morning atleast i gave a laugh :p
  14. I disagree, it was OP in the beta when you used it correctly. Now it's just bad in comparison to other AA and needs a buff. This is coming from a scythe pilot by the way.
  15. Skyguard is utter ****. I cant win in a one v. one with an rocketpod fighter plane even if I get the drop on them. The only stuff I can kill is whats already under 50% health (maybe), everything else just flies away or kills me. I would say get the HA anti air rockets, or something else, not the skyguard.
  16. You might be surprised to know that in moderate to heavy battles, the AA MAX can't see ESFs until they're within 200m as well. Quite often, the ESF appears at the same time as the rocket spam.
  17. Curerently MAX AA is best in every situations, followed by g2a missile.
    Skyguard is not worth 1000 certs, its more like AA MAX that cant get anywhere!
    On the bottom of list there is AA turret, or practice target! Its easier to shot down aircraft with AV one.
  18. As a liberator pilot I strongly disagree with this post, I think sky guards and their longer distance shooting is really annoying, as they can shoot me much further away than my gunner can shoot them. Yes they don't deal a ton of damage, but its enough to suppress and keep me away.
    Maxxes in the other hand are a joke, they have a short range, well within the range of my Zepher, and with Thermal infantry light up like Xmas trees and turn very quickly into giant piles of Certs for my crew. Plus maxxes don't move that fast, easy easy targets.
  19. I think the burster MAX sucks, actually. The Skyguard sucks even worse. HA's G2A missiles are the best AA right now IMO. Two HAs working in tandem can down an ESF almost instantly whereas two burster MAXes would only succeed in scaring it off.
    • Up x 1
  20. This a millions times this.

    Flak based AA is just not that amazing right now. Busters and Skyguards are there to annoy and harass and hopefully basically be zone denial, they don't get kills, they don't remove the problems, they just try to keep the problems away.

    Just get 2-3 HA guys with the G2A missiles and go to town. Work together and lock the same target and send a volley at it. Reload find your next target and repeat. Aslong as you are shooting at ESF's 3 is a near certain kill. These HA's can be pulled from ANY base/sunderer, these guys can be reloaded by any random engie and can easily get to useful places like ontop of buildings, on rocky outcroppings that are hard to attack from the air, and so on.
    If you want to actually destroy aircraft from the ground the G2A missiles from the HA class are the best option, but require some team work.

    You could try to do the same with 3+ skyguards, but then you have none of the benefits of being infantry, paint yourself as a nice big target. Finally you have to deal with the ****** flak system instead of the rather friendly and easy lockon missiles. Further for resupply you need to stay near a base OR bring an ammo sundy with you. In the end you might kill acouple ESF's before they all just avoid the area. Which while good for the team is about as boring as all hell, specially when the zerg can't seem to actually get in there and take the base because they have no clue how to attack a biolab.

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